Note from PJ: We are going to start a new segment here on the blog, where readers write in and ask long time contributor “The Maj” for advice on prepping issues. If you have been a long time reader, you’ll recall that Maj recently conducted an actual bugout on foot and recorded the entire journey for us. I should warn anyone who wants to write in, Maj can be very blunt and opinionated, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. Here is the first installment in the series.
From Brian:
I had a opinion question that I was hoping you’d opine on. I’ll start by saying that I’m a former U.S. Army Ranger, 98′-02′, and recently stumbled across your website searching prepper forums. Your website is great by the way. Articles are fresh and give good perspective. I especially liked the one on “military mindset”, most former military guys are clueless when it comes to practicality and general know how. Onto my question, I’m trying to get as much insight as I can get.
I own a Sig M400 AR 15 that is customized to my liking. In addition to my shotguns etc., I see this as my main but not only weapon in a SHTF scenario. My plan is to bug in and have family join me. I’ll be acquiring a secondary auto weapon for my arsenal and came across Sig’s 716 Patrol which is a .308/.762 caliber weapon. Heavy duty indeed. I had always contemplated buying another .203/.556 rifle due to numerous factors including;
-ability to focus on hoarding one type of caliber round
-likelihood that if the S (really) HTF .556 ammo might be easier to come across due to it being practically on every soldiers person.
-moderately priced with regard to the shocking cost of .308/.762 rounds
I’m drawn to the stopping power of the 716 Patrol though, it’s a beast. Before I make a bad decision, while weighing both practicality AND giving me the best chance for survival, am I better off or worse off adding this rifle and round to my repertoire? Are there pro’s and con’s I’m missing besides the obvious?
A little more background to consider, I live in the suburbs of a very populated city and have to risk going through the middle of it to properly bug out so that can’t happen until after a lengthy bug in in my opinion. At least until total pandemonium has subsided. Because of my location I’m worried even more about security than your average guy and feel that a flawless bug in plan and the right weapons are completely necessary. One more caveat, there is a thriving deer population as I move east of my residence that I may have to rely on many months into my bug in so factor that for increased caliber as well. Anxious to hear your thoughts and appreciate your time.
Answer from The Maj:
Given your location and intent to bug in along with other members of your family or friends, you would probably be worse off purchasing a .308 / 7.62x51mm weapon. You already mentioned one of the key reasons why not to purchase a weapon with a different caliber, which is standardized ammo. The expense of the .308 ammo is another key reason you would be worse off when it comes to prepping. You mentioned providing a weapon to a family member that shows up to bug in with you, so I am assuming they are not experienced with ARs, in which case the .308 would be intimidating to a novice shooter. As for killing deer, the 5.56mm round is perfectly capable of taking deer, even though I would plan more on plenty of canned goods or emergency rations rather than relying on wildlife in such an overpopulated area.
Taking things a little farther, if you are looking for more punch and providing weapons to those that might show up to bug in with you then you might consider going the AK or SKS route. The weapons are simple enough to operate and the ammo is still relatively inexpensive. Of course that option would need to be weighed against how much 5.56 ammo you already have stockpiled. If you have a lot stockpiled already, I would stick with 5.56 ammo and platforms. If you only have a couple thousand rounds of 5.56 stocked then I would seriously consider going the AK or SKS route – in that case, I would standardize platforms so parts are interchangeable.
Do you have a question for The Maj? Send an email to: Askthemaj at gmail dot com. (All together on the email, written that way to thwart spam bots).
[notice]The views and opinions here on this blog post are solely that of the author (The Maj). These views and opinions do not necessarily represent the position of PJ, Prepper-Resources.com or any other contributors to the site.[/notice]
23 comments
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Logical and sensible. Without giving up too much Intel, AK/SKS route is even harder to acquire based on the state I live in. The AR is specifically modified to the state requirement. I suppose I could always attempt to have my local shop modify anything incoming but it’s a real challenge. Don’t let your state take away your gun rights people!!!
Luckily I’m dragging said family members to the range enough to get them comfortable. They even bang the magazine on their helmets now before locking and loading…..
That’s a great question and response. Guys I work with ask this question often. I think many times we over think the weapons choices.
I like to point at the shop owners here in St. Louis where they were fine if they had any weapon. No looter was like “hey is that 5.56 or 7.62…“ No, they saw a rifle and went to the softer targets.
If you have extra money to spend, what about investing in some training.
Ok, I promise no rant, LOL
This is a GREAT Idea PJ, I have a few questions I would like to ask myself, and this will get me “honest” answers.
As far as Ar-15’s and the ammo, I personally like em a LOT if you get my drift, I also have a modified “hunting “ rifle that’s a 223/5.56, great load for taking almost anything less than a Buffalo. It’s very very nice to consolidate the ammo to only a few calibers. For me its 12GA, 45ACP, and 5.56 for SHTF stuff, but have a hell of a lot of fun with the other stuff, nothing more fun that good old Black Power.
The Maj, what is your take on shotguns rather that AR-15 for the home defense, I have some problems with a solid round going at Mach-3 inside the home going through walls and the like with other people inside the home, Hence the shotgun (like the Mossberg 930-SPX) with birdshot (#7) and larger after the first 2 shots, than a sidearm (45ACP) if needed? I have often heard the old adage of the most frightening thing an intruder hears is a pump shotgun being cycled, I disagree; the most frightening is the safety button being pushed off. Personally I always keep one in the pipe.
Also I highly like Echo5Charlie’s comment…… Everyone get some training and head to the range to practice, even you old time military guys out there don’t get dusty or rusty.
Rant all you want NRP, I can assure you I have as thick of skin as anyone you have ever seen. 🙂
As for home defense, I am in the club that the shotgun is probably the best weapon for most people if you are engaging inside the home. Personally, I use a 12 gauge loaded with hand loaded 4×6 3-inch magnum shells. I build these based off of the Remington Duplex Turkey round. The #4 and #6 shot holds a nice pattern out to 30 yards and generally do not punch through a standard Sheetrock wall with enough velocity to do damage to someone on the other side. If I didn’t have kids, I would opt for buckshot because I wouldn’t be concerned about the other side of the wall. I am going with 5 shots from the shotgun though.
Author
I have buckshot and slug staggered in my 12 gauge. Pure devastation coming out of the business end of the tube. Why staggered? I have no idea, seemed like a good plan at the time.
Why staggered? If you hit your target with shot and they didn’t go down, at that point I feel the target will go down with a slug. If the target is armored, hence failed first shot (and you know SOME of those who want to hurt Americans do have armor) then the slug will part what the shot already started; another hit with shot just may do the same, not stop the target.
I do the same with my 45 mags – flying silver ashtrays and round noses. If the first doesn’t work or I have to go through light cover, the second will go through where first may not.
Just my theory. 🙂
Author
Thanks for the reply, and it makes complete sense. 🙂
In answer to Brian’s question(s) let me play devil’s advocate for a moment.
I had the privilege of growing up during the years that the gun industry was dominated and directed by the likes of Elmer Keith and the venerable Col. Jeff Cooper. Both of these gentlemen were avid hunters. Each also had a direct effect on the shooting industry and by extension are responsible for some of the more popular calibers we enjoy today.
Of the 308 Winchester Col. Cooper had this to say, “Adequate power may be had with any of the 20-caliber family of military cartridges, the best of which was probably the 30.06, now largely pre-empted by its compacted offspring, the 308.”
“Useful accuracy is that which the shooter can put to use…Let us proceed on the assumption that we need a two-inch-shooting .308 as a base…A 30-caliber, 150-grain spitzer at 2700 fps may not be a “magnum,” but it has been logging one-shot kills all over the world for so long that one may well ask why anything more is necessary, unless one’s target weighs over 1,000 pounds.”
Col. Cooper also saw the disadvantage inherent in the 223 (5.56) cartridge now standard in the military. In a very lengthy article Col. Cooper explains how the 223 (5.56) cartridge was adopted by the military, not for its ability to stop advancing infantry, but rather because in the 1960’s too many new recruits were coming from suburbia. As a result many of these new recruits had never held a weapon let alone fired one. The problem the military had was that these Vietnam bound personal needed to be trained to fire a weapon and the military wanted to do it quickly without causing the new rifleman to develop the habit of flinching or becoming “recoil sensitive”. This is the unknown overriding “need” behind the military’s adoption of the 223 (5.56) cartridge.
As such, Col. Cooper rated the 223 (5.56) round as being “adequate” out to 200 yards and relegated it to the category of a “marginal” combat weapon.
Col. Cooper was a shootist in every sense of the word and he had the facts to back up what he proclaimed so for a quick moment let’s look at the mathematics that he used.
A bullet’s sectional density (SD) gives us an idea of the “killing potential” of any given bullet. In the case of the 223 a 55 grain bullet has a SD of .158 whereas a 30 cal bullet weighting 150 grains has a SD of .226. What this means is that for a 223 (5.56) bullet to perform at the level of 30 caliber 150 grain bullet would require the 223 (5.56) bullet weigh 79 grains or more.
This concept becomes crystal clear when we compare a 308 rounds SD against the a 223 (5.56) bullet out to 200 yards and beyond.
A 55 grain 223 (5.56) bullet leaving the muzzle at 3240 fps produces 1282 ft-lbs of energy. At 200 yards this same bullet is still traveling in excess of 2500 fps but it only develops 770 ft-lbs of killing energy. By the time this same bullet reaches 300 yards it is still traveling at almost 2200 fps but its energy has fallen to a miserable 585 ft-lbs. This is less then the amount of energy a 357 magnum shooting a 140 grain bullet will give you at 50 yards.
In contrast look at the 308 caliber 150 grain bullet which leaves the muzzle at 2750 fps with an initial energy of 2561 ft-lbs. At 200 yard the 308 caliber bullet is traveling at around 2250 fps but it still develops 1700 ft-lbs of energy. That is 400 ft-lbs more then the 223 (5.56) developed at the muzzle. As a matter of fact, it isn’t until the 308 round reaches 350 yards that its energy is equal to that of the 223 (5.56) at its muzzle.
Of course cost is always a factor in our buying decisions but in this instance we need to ask a very simple question: “What is our life and the lives of our loved ones worth in a SHTF scenario?” I answered the question this way. Train, teach, and practice with the 223 (5.56) round and keep it in abeyance as a close (150 yard or LESS) range defensive weapon. Otherwise the first choice is the 308 or an equivalent caliber.
MuleSkinner, I agree on the superiority of the .308 vs the .223. My personal preps revolve around the .308 and many will be surprised to find that I do not have a single AR in my inventory. I am old school when it comes to weapons in general and I prefer durability over portability. Also, the fact that I already had 2 M-14s, 2 M1 (T36), and an M1A Scout in my inventory when I started prepping it only made sense to stick with the .308/7.62x51mm as my primary stockpile rifle ammo. Otherwise, it was spend thousands on new platforms. I also own several bolt rifles in .308.
My response to Brian centered more around the practicality of owning one type of platform and buying an odd ball which means double stockpiles and double practice ammo. Also, the practicality of having the same platform means parts, clips, stripper clips, etc all are interchangeable. His being in a densely populated area also means that a 150 yard + shot is going to be pretty rare so the .223 is probably sufficient.
Maj:
I certainly see your point. However, we need to take something into consideration that are often overlooked.
First, while a city block can change from city to city the average city block in the US is 111 yards by 111 yards.
Second, a 150 yard shot in a densely populated area is not out of the question or even a stretch of the imagination. Consider this the average distance between telephone poles in the US is 100 feet. Therefore, if you are standing next to a telephone pole then counting 3 poles from your position would be 100 yards, 6 poles from your position is 200 yards etc… This makes for a easy means of “ranging” you AO.
For myself, and obviously you feel the same, I would much rather be over gunned then under gunned especially when it is a life or death that is on the line.
The only way to know for sure is to range your neighborhood and see what type of shots you may be required to take. I already know my average shot is 220 yards.
Author
I think one of the major issues we face (no pun intended, the maj….major issues) is the fantasy obsession with close quarters combat / room clearing / street battles. The recent wars and subsequent movies haven’t helped much either. You’ll find a bazillion videos on room clearing and short range engagements, not so much on anything beyond 200 yards with an AR. Quite frankly, it just isn’t sexy and cool reloads are not required. How many guys could put rounds in a 10 inch circle at 200 yards when gassed, wearing kit, and on the move? Yikes…
The info and opinions shared are all much appreciated. The truth is, and I may have to reconsider my overall plan, maybe I’m being shortsighted. My plan as mentioned above calls for anywhere between a 6 month to an 18 month MAX bug in. 18 is pushing my extreme as my preparations currently allow. Truth is, I have to get out of dodge at an appropriate time (situation allowing). As I run my gauntlet, the arguments presented above for maximum range for caliber I carry currently side with Maj’s initial assessment. My situation will greatly change thereafter with regard to terrain, population and LOS. The more I think about it a .308/.762 round becomes more practical. Guess I’ll be scouring gunbroker.com for 2 to 3 SKS’s as a bang for the buck fall back. I’ll have to do my research to find bayonet-less options…
Author
Brian
You mention hunting…
Have you read this article?
https://www.prepper-resources.com/why-you-shouldnt-count-on-hunting-after-t-shtf/
Brian, I am not certain about your particular area but I know in several states that have “AR bans”, some of the older SKSs are exempt under their “Curio and Relics” laws. Naturally, the age of the SKS comes into play. I have a “friend” that bought 10 unused, consecutive SN, Russian SKSs a couple months back for $3000 that qualified under his state’s C&R law. So deals can still be found. If the bayonet is the only problem, it can be easily removed from most SKSs but if the lug is the problem it can be a little more problematic.
Author
AR haters. I have 308 and 223 rifles and love them both, although they both serve different purposes. Would I want to go on an extended patrol with my M1A in an EBR stock? No…that thing is pretty damn heavy and you can’t carry as much ammo in a rig as a 223 cousin. Would I want to snipe targets at 300 / 500 yards with a 223? Maybe…but I’d rather have the 308 (especially for vehicle encounters) for instances where bad guys might be tougher to engage.
To each his own, there is no one formula which is best.
The nice thing about Prepping is it gives us time to re-evaluate our resources and get more information/training for what we may perceive on what’s coming down the pike.
Personally I’m more of a Bug-in sort for a lot of reasons, mainly because I already live in an area where the hordes from the metros will be heading or trying to head. So home protection and defense are more likely to be higher on my list than Bugging-out in the first year of SHTF; and if I did Bug-out it’s going to be just over the first hill in anticipation of heading back ASAP, I would not relish the idea of trotting across the countryside not really knowing the terrain or what’s around the next bend in the road. With that said I truly can’t see me, or anyone I know in the area, toting a fully loaded 70+ pound BOB and a 308 with 500 rounds more than a few miles. (Of course I do have the BOB ready to go at the drop of a hat).
I have a tricked out AR-15 that’s good to go at 300YD with a 4” group (not bad for an old fart …. HAHAHA). Even with the lighter impact at long range I do believe that it will make a hell of a deterrent for the “bad guys”. On the other hand the AR-8 (308) will stay home with me for those 500-800 yard shots to protect the old homestead on the outside, but I’m staying with the shotgun and sidearm inside.
I agree with PJ completely, each to their own, but for crying out loud get out there and burn some ammo, ya don’t hit 800 yards without a round or two going down the pipe. Hell even if you don’t drop the sucker at 800, it sure as hell will make em think twice after hearing the canon going off and the dust popping up around him.
Last note, I do believe if I was in a state/providence/city or whatever that has a ban on a particular item I felt was critical to my safety and wellbeing, I would have to really re-evaluate the situation long and hard.
Life is short; enjoy every minute of it you can.
NRP
Author
I try to burn up ammo, at least 500-1000 rounds per month when I’m not working like a slave and the weather cooperates. However…I focus primarily on pistol work as well…the higher probability lies in the fact that I might have to use a pistol to defend myself vs a long gun. Although I do enjoy shooting multiple platforms of long guns.
I was tipped off that the family teamed up and got me a group Christmas gift, the Sig 716. I’ll take those allocated funds and diversify with a Dillon 550 reloading press and Blue Barrel rain catchment system. I’ve had my eye on both for awhile.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/23594/catid/1/RL_550B
https://www.bluebarrelsystems.com/about/the-bluebarrel-system/
Brian
I personally have a Blue Dillon XL650, the auto advance and with a shell feeder. If at all possible you might consider going to the 650 if you can, it’s a hell of a piece of equipment; I load everything from the undersized 38 and 9MM to the 223 and 3030 rifle loads (the larger rifle stuff I load still by hand). I bet I have run 10’s of thousands of rounds through it and am very impressed. I did have a problem with a shell plate for the SW-500, called them and they sent a replacement out overnight with no questions asked. As far as accuracy, I set my 45ACP (my round of choice) dies up and checked the loads every 20 rounds for awhile and finally gave up and now check every 100 or so. It’s very quick and very very easy to use, did a test run with the 45’s, with everything set and ready to go I punched over 700 rounds out in a little under one hour, my god my arm was tired HAHAHA, but again I checked rounds after and everything was within specs.
As far as the Rain barrels go…. If it would ever rain here in NM I might consider it… LOL
Best of luck and it sounds to me like you have a hell of a great family there.
NRP
Author
I run the Lee Turret Press (4 hole), it does everything I need it to and more.
Don’t have but a shotgun and never shot it, what do you recommend for those who never shot a gun?
Anne
Author
Anne
Do you know anyone you trust who could possibly let you fire their guns? This is a best case scenario, especially since you have never fired one yourself.
To anne, I suggest that you start with shooting a .410 shotgun (then 20ga. and finally 12 ga.), my lady can handle this without problem but won’t ever shoot a 12ga. again (she says) because the recoil will literally knock her off her feet! Though I have weapons in several calibers, I prefer .308 because I was lucky to get a FAL (sporterized) before they became rarer than hen’s teeth and thus expensive as well! As well as a backup in the same caliber, I have more than one weapon in .223 caliber because (among other reasons) again the recoil is too much for my lady; besides she can’t (so far) consistently hit a man-sized target at 200 yards, so the added effective range of a .308 isn’t needed/practical for her. Both calibers are very common and IMHO, both are worth investing in! By the way, love this site! Good Luck and happy prepping! (GLAHP)