By now you’ve probably read about it and seen it on the news. Today in Paris three gunman killed 12 in a deliberate attack on a French magazine. Not only did they kill people inside the building they also shot people while exchanging fire outside in the street. If you missed it, here is the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ykZhXKYb8A
Now…this post isn’t what you think. There will be a flood of posts on the internet which set out to showcase why gun control is a bad idea, that being because in France (a nation with very strict gun control laws) even some of the police aren’t armed.
After around ten minutes we saw two heavily armed, masked men in the street. Three policemen arrived by push bike, but they left naturally as the attackers were armed. They got into a car after a few minutes after shouting in the street. There was quite a lot of gunfire in the street for a few minutes. Firemen, ambulances and police vehicles arrived a few minutes later.
But I’m not here to somehow reinforce the fact that if police or citizens would have been armed they might have been able to stop the shooters and lives would have been saved. I’m not here to say “I told you so” to gun control advocates and Piers Morgan. I’m here to point out what will probably be an overlooked point of concern when analyzing this scenario, that being this: unless you are John Rambo or Chuck Norris bringing a handgun to a semi-auto rifle fight (and being outnumbered 3:1) isn’t all that appealing.
I’m betting if I were to ask those with a concealed carry permit how confident they feel in being able to defend themselves against another bad guy with a gun, the responses would largely be trending positive. After all most train quite a bit and like to think they can put rounds on target if a situation got sticky, not that they ever want that to happen of course. And yet what you do you, “Mr 1911 on my hip with 2 spare mags”, when you are walking down the street with your wife and 20 feet in front of you 3 masked men jump out of a car toting AK’s at the ready? Quick draw and 3 headshots! Bam bam bam, just like at the range! Not likely…
The way I see it there would be a small window (2-3 seconds) to make a decision and options are limited:
1- Immediately Seek Cover
2- Attempt to engage targets
3- Engage in the general direction of said targets and seek cover
4- Run away
5- Charge
6- Freeze in place, urinate on self
7- Try to engage one target in order to gain access to his weapon
If you watch the video it appears that they moved as a team down the street, directing their fires at pretty much anything that moved. So what do you do in a situation like this? Personally while I have an IDEA of what I might LIKE to do (based on my experience and rationale) I’m not quite sure what I really WOULD do until faced with that scenario.
While this event happened thousands of miles away the type of people who committed this act are only going to get more brazen while growing in numbers. To assume this couldn’t happen where you live is simply foolish. Thoughts?
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First I’d like to point out I predicted this in my 2015 predictions.
Second I think those aks were full auto not semi, even worse.
Third I nor anyone else has any idea what we would do. So many variables working. To take them on you’d need an opportunity. If you’re with the family I would naturally want to get them to cover ASAP and probably post up in between them and the bad guys.
I’ve been with my daughter when I was carrying (not my 1911 though) and shots were fired and I took her away from the direction of the shooting and got her out of there.
Author
I assumed they were semi based on the video but I could have been wrong, not that one couldn’t squeeze the trigger pretty quickly on a semi-auto regardless. I definitely believe discretion is the better part of valor in that instance but if you look at the street in the vid it’s a perfect kill box. Almost nowhere to go/hide if you were caught out there.
It’s a bad spot for sure. Rifles vs pistol = oh crap time. If you were right there when they transition out of the vehicle, maybe. Even then you would have to know what they were coming to do. If you’re down aways and their coming at you while covering each other, oh crap. Where your located in this and when you realize what’s going on is going to dictate your reaction.
Radio today said full auto and they had an rpg. Maybe tomorrow they will report it accurately. Like usual, first reports suck.
Author
Full auto and an RPG, pretty sure they didn’t scoop those up at the local pawn shop. It’s good to think about these type of scenarios though, as unlikely has it might be that this would occur. FWIW, while 12 weren’t shot dead (thankfully) similar events have happened here in the states.
“Police say those men robbed at least 11 gas stations in a two-week period. Then, just hours after police put out a public notice about the robberies, the group struck again — this time robbing six different gas stations in one hour. In every instance, police say the suspects will cover their faces, walk into a gas station armed with assault weapons [AK47’s] and announce a hold-up.”
In reality, it’s most likely if you get caught up in a similar situation you will be the only one armed at all and like you pointed out under armed verse two or three gunmen with aks. If your in the wrong place you’re going to die. What would it look like though if 10 people on that street had a pistol or 20. Now those 2 or 3 people cannot cover all the angles. They jump out and shoot a guy carrying, maybe two and people start shooting back from several directions. Could be a way better outcome. Even if you die there, at least you didn’t die with the feeling of hopelessness unarmed and waiting for them to find their way to you and possibly your family.
A pistol is a defensive weapon. As many people would like to make it an offensive weapon (yes I know it can be) when you are armed with a pistol and going up against someone armed with a rifle (in the open), you are more than likely going to lose. Simply put the odds are not in your favor when it is 1 pistol vs 3 rifles in the open. You lose out on range, capacity, and firepower against one rifle.
May sound a bit crass, but I carry in order to protect myself and my family FIRST. If I do not have to engage to protect myself / family OR by engaging, I put myself or my family in a no win situation, then I probably am not going to engage. Because I carry, it does not become my responsibility to go into a no win situation in order to protect someone else. So, in the scenario presented here, I am probably (more than likely) either getting my family the hell out of harms way if possible OR holeing my family up in some kind of cover that gives me a better opportunity to defend myself and them.
This idea of going in guns blazing to save the day is novel and works really well in the movies, not so much in real life.
Now to those that would say things like “coward” or would like to throw out some snappy quote from history about evil succeeding because good men did nothing, I have two things to say: 1. My responsibility is to my family and myself – so if you choose not to carry or cannot carry because of where you live, that is your own fault and is in no way my fault or responsibility AND 2. I will still sleep like a baby knowing I did right by my family and go to my grave without a single regret.
It’s not crass. It’s a sound philosophy imo.
Author
+2 on that E5C
Right or Wrong?
The Maj is absolutely correct, IMO. We would all love to be the one on the 5:00 news that saved hundreds of others because of our bravery, and a hand gun, going up against 3 full-auto, a rocket launcher, and 3 crazy men set on killing anyone/everyone they can. Add to the mix these psychos are willing and wanting to die for some religious cause. But it AINT going to happen you WILL just add up the total, no glamor, no hero, just dead. I don’t care how lucky or how much of a Rambo you are, you WILL end up in a box.
I just am really really concerned when the masses are going to have enough of this kind of shit. Here is a question for you? If these assholes murdered your family, your parents, and your children, what would you do? I mean after the mourning, the funeral, after you sit alone for a few weeks. I see a real problem coming around the bend my friends. What would you do if some sick bastard cut the head off your wife because of some religion? If this continues it will NOT be a pretty site I’m afraid.
Please don’t mistake me, I’m not condoning violence by any means, BUT when is enough— enough? FYI, don’t expect the sluverment or your local goodie-two-shoes to put an end to this. It WILL become violent; you had better be ready for it.
Last note; if you are one of those that thinks it’s only happening “over there” think again.
NRP
NRP
I agree the Maj is correct. I also think there are more categories than live or dead. To me, we should add live hero or dead hero. Everybody dies, if it happens stopping or trying to stop some bad guys, so be it. Doesn’t mean I’d Rambo into any situation, I’m not an action hero that takes out the entire russian army with exploding arrows. I am a guy who has trained and prepared above average and through that has learned my limits and abilities. If I have the opportunity to use that training I very well might.
While the Maj has a perfectly sound philosophy up there, I would help someone else IF I can and after my family is taken care of. I would hope someone would help my family if I’m apart from them. I don’t expect it, but would be very appreciative.
I don’t carry a fire extinguisher in my truck for my vehicle only. If I passed another vehicle on fire I’d stop and spray it. I hope someone would do the same for me or my family.
Each situation is a judgement call about what’s best for your family and what you have the ability to do for others.
Echo5Charlie
I do agree with your point, like you I would help in any and every way I could, if this and if that. Unfortunately there are a lot of “if’s” out there, but in the just of this post, I would see very unfortunate outcome to facing the aggressors with a hand gun.
Thanks for the input, keep it safe out there
NRP
Author
The good news is we are having a virtual discussion and swapping ideas, potential best practices etc. That’s exactly what I was after, not some post about what you SHOULD do because I said so (like I’m some tacticool guru). Rather, here’s a problem…how would we solve it?
Author
E5C
I just slapped myself after reading your comment. I have multiple fire extinguishers around the house, one on my work vehicles but NONE in my personal vehicles. IDIOT! Thanks for the reminder, will remedy this weekend. Maybe I’ll mount them on the A pillar just like one of those high school racer kids do.
Oh definitely a bad outcome in this scenario. This is probably one of the worst active shooter scenarios possible.